Renegade Tribune Interview by Curt Beasley, October 2016 (text)
This interview was compiled by Curt Beasley from written questions he submitted to me and my written answers, and was originally published by the Renegade Tribune on Oct. 4, 2016. It is reproduced here for the readers’ convenience and with permission of the Renegade Tribune. The original page at that site is here.
Kalki Weisthor AKA Bob Weisthor is an Armanist, a Wotanist and a student of the Vedas, a seeker of historical truth, and an advocate of deep ecology, who lives in the Southern United States. He is the proprietor ofKalkiWeisthor.net, and advocates spiritual Awakening of Aryan man as necessary for the survival of his people and of World Civilization. He is a former attorney and a former Buddhist whose inspirations include Miguel Serrano and Savitri Devi.
Curt Beasley: What is a sun wheel exactly and why did some within the NSDAP have an interest in it?
Robert Weisthor: I could say, as everybody says, that it’s one of man’s oldest living signs but even to say that, is possibly a modern psychologizing or anthropomorphizing of it. It could be older than man as we know him.
We can point to examples as early as the Neolithic period, found in places that indicate its use in quite varied cultures all over the world. Of course it’s redundant to say it’s a solar symbol, but the sun has meant something to pretty much every culture or race that ever walked this earth, for obvious reasons. And if you were to find it on another planet in another solar system – assuming there was a culture there capable of producing things that we would recognize as signs – that wouldn’t surprise anyone, but I think any physical planet capable of supporting sentient life that we would recognize as such, would have to have a sun in a phase somewhat comparable to ours. So I think it would be that the existence of a solar symbol in general would indicate that its makers recognize their sun as source of energy and life.
But when you say a sun wheel, you have to decide whether it’s really a different symbol than a swastika or a Hakenkreuz or a St. Andrew’s cross, or any number of signs that are similar and yet dissimilar enough to make the set of signs hard to define. As to its meaning, I think in general a lot of religious founders or reformers have been drawn toward solar symbolism when they attempt to transcend pantheons of lower deities. Look at Akhenaton, whom Savitri Devi discusses in multiple places at great length. Some of them are even in Semitic religions; I recently stumbled across the unlikely example of the Mughal emperor Akhbar, with his Din-i-Ilahi, although that incorporated a lot of Hinduism and Zoroastrianism, which make open use of solar symbols. And it emerges when truer, more ancient teachings poke their heads up through those Semitic religions, like the St. Andrew’s cross itself.
As to why some of the NSDAP leaders would have been drawn to it, if indeed they were – our most provable example would obviously be Himmler – I think you have to look at the teachings that influenced them. If you’re looking back through the NSDAP itself to its founding Thule Society, or to the other teachers of the German occult revival, you have the Hakenkreuz as the undeniable central symbol. Von List saw it as his ultimate Rune, in the slightly hidden form of Gibor.
Overall I think that for the NSDAP members who were aware of such things, or for the Revivalists in general, the sun was a symbol of the natural order of things, a greater power at the source of the power of nature, and as such standing in opposition to the forces of death and decay which were strangling their people during the Weimar, and before when it was incipient. I would think that it meant to them, on the most basic and primal level, the embrace of primeval power to arise and throw off the chains of their jailers. To re-establish the natural order, the natural law, in the face of the Disease. Cleansing, purification. For years I personally had a recurring vision or visualization of walking out into the desert sun until I was cleansed, purified. I think that’s a natural impulse for someone who’s been covered in metaphysical filth who wants to get clean.
CB: There was a sun wheel painted on the floor of Wewelsburg castle. Do you have any insight as to what kind of occult activity might have taken place inside that castle among NSDAP brass?
RW: Actually that figure is an inlay, which leads to more speculation as to when it may have been added to the room. I’ve seen credible arguments by esoteric Hitlerists themselves who claim that it was added after WWII. I tend to think it had something to do with Karl Maria Wiligut, but I could be wrong. But the renovation of that North Tower at Wewelsburg was never completed; it was interrupted by the War, and there’s no evidence it was ever put to any use at all. We know that there were grand plans, certainly. And Wiligut was also out of influence by that time.
I think an important clue to the whole mystery of occult activity within the SS is Serrano’s statement that he doubts Himmler was the “real” head of the SS, or that he even knew who was. That is, of course he was the head of the Schutzstaffel. But did he really even understand the metahuman nature of the entities that truly stood behind and above it, and empowered it? I think Himmler, as a human, was like Hitler a physical focus for larger forces who located in him for a while, or around him, in his case, and eventually deserted him. It’s pretty clear that the Himmler who was taken by Allied forces at the end of the War was just a guy.
To answer this and your next question, I have to clarify that I think that the NSDAP and the whole political expression of the Wotan forces what awoke in Germany beginning in the late nineteenth century were just a material expression of that force, and a particular one. That is, they were necessarily expressed by humans and other matter, in a debased and material time. So the whole idea that they were actually conducting occult rituals is kind of a modernist romanticism. Himmler may have done some such, but probably not in his official role; and I wonder if he even could do effective rituals, in his human form. There were great powers behind him which obviously worked through him, but how consciously aware of them he was, or to the extent that he was aware, understood them correctly, we don’ t know.
My guess is that there have been more occult rituals conducted by “neo-Nazi” and esoteric Hitlerists and wannabes, with various degrees of realization, starting in the 1950’s that there were before 1945, at Wewelsburg.
CB: In your recent Red Ice interview, you rejected the idea that Adolf Hitler was practicing black magic and said that occultists were actually expelled from the NSDAP. There is a modern reprint now available of Ernst Schertel’s 1923 book Magic: History, Theory, Practice. The book is said to have been given to Hitler personally by its author and the reprint is complete with Hitler’s very own annotations. Are you familiar with this book and if so, do you consider the annotations to be authentic?
RW: Well no, I was not familiar with that book and have not seen it, and if I had I certainly wouldn’t be the person to try to authenticate any notes purported to be from Hitler. I would doubt it because of the dating; it seems to me that if Hitler read this sort of thing, it would have been during his youth in Vienna or Munich, before WWI, and not after the formation of the NSDAP. But I’m not saying he couldn’t have. I may have to take a look at the book, out of curiosity.
But first, I would have to say that if there is “magic” behind the Third Reich (and Hitler didn’t even like that term!), which I think there was, it was certainly not Black. I think the metaphysical forces behind the NSDAP’s German revolution were the forces of light. The magic was very, very white. So I doubt Hitler would have looked at such a thing for very long after his initiation by the Wotan force after his experience at Rienzi. Black magic is what he was fighting against.
Having said that, I think that putting the occultists of the German Occult Revival in camps or at least driving them out of favor or to suicide – look at Otto Rahn – is one of the real tragedies that occur when transcendent forces land somewhat awkwardly in the material world. The Fuhrer, as a metahuman entity which rode the body of the human Adolf Hitler, or the even more transcendent entity Serrano refers to by the Jungian term archetype, found or formed in Hitler a vessel uniquely prepared to hold those entities – and even then, being “ridden” by them had caused visible hardships to the mortal body.
Certainly the mass of the humans who made up the NSDAP, and even more so the German population, were certainly not as suitable as hosts. So you see psychologization, mundane politics, Catholicism and Protestantism, human conservatism and social convention, all contributing to and more notably distracting from the Zeitgeist in awkward and seemingly random ways. And over all this lies the taint of the Disease, which could not have disappeared without the victory of the Archetype.
So no, I don’t think Hitler the man practiced any kind of magic, in terms we would recognize as such, at all. Instead, what you see in him is a focus of forces that don’t need to do magic, because they are magic.
CB: Many within Nationalist circles have been anxiously awaiting David Irving’s Heinrich Himmler biography, due for completion any time. In his interviews about Himmler, Irving never says a word about Himmler having had an interest in the occult, yet internet lore says otherwise. It seems unlikely that a historian like Irving could miss something that huge if it were true. What is your view on Himmler and his having an interest in the occult?
RW: Oops, I think I addressed this one above. To add to that, I would say that Irving doesn’t talk about Himmler and the occult because it is not the kind of thing he cares about, but more particularly it is not the kind of thing he would be likely to see, because of the way he works. Knowing Irving, he would have done his best to talk to anyone who knew Himmler who is or was alive during the long preparation process of the book, but he would have had to rely mostly on actual documents: letters, reports, and official records. The diary. Irving doesn’t use secondary sources; I don’t think he would consider that he has the time, energy or inclination for the most part to even look at them, which is why his work is so refreshing and trustworthy. It also makes his work very material and mundane, because that is his nature. He is a bulldog with regard to facts, provable facts. And this is not the sort of them that would make it into official records, or even the diaries of the time written by the NSDAP leaders, all of which appear to have been written as if with the knowledge that they might be read by prying eyes. Which is probably accurate.
It’s clear that Himmler did have an interest in the occult, heavily abetted by his wife apparently. That certainly had, on the material level, an effect on the SS and NSDAP styles and symbols in general, if nothing else due to his adoption of so much of Wiligut’s work and all the work of the esotericists that came in through it. And let’s not forget Hess, who I think probably had more direct contact with the metahuman forces. But I think it’s more helpful to see that all of these people are particular manifestations of the effects these entities have on people in time; they are not the entities themselves.
So the occult forces, the true gods of the Third Reich, expressed themselves in symbols, in language read by the soul, just as much through the work of Leni Riefenstahl and Albert Speer, who as far as I know didn’t have a consciously occult “bone in their bodies”. Who knows why Himmler was “chosen” to do what he did? There were certainly a lot of people around with more esoteric knowledge. To paraphrase, the gods call who they will.
CB: More often than not, so-called black magic has some form of Jewish symbolism, artwork, Hebrew writing, etc in there somewhere. Why do you think that Judaic fingerprints are all over so much of this stuff?
RW: As a preface to that, I think we should be clear about what we mean by Black vs White magic. To be brief, I think the intuitive definition most people would have is that White magic does good, and Black magic does bad. Then there’s a confusion that comes from thinking about magic from within a culture created by and for Right Hand path religions, which also associates Black magic with the Left Hand path.
I think that’s really misleading when you think about it in the context of Serrano’s work, or from Left Hand path Odinism (which I would prefer to call Wotanism, though not specifically what David Lane, say, had in mind by the term). From the Left Hand perspective, the true and ultimate purpose of “spiritual” work is true Individuation, not blending into a seamless, undifferentiated whole, or becoming subservient to it. This problem is exacerbated when, here in Flatland, you have people mistaking Individuation (in the Jungian sense) for “individualism” which has to do with hedonism and glorifcation of the “personal” and the material. That’s why the so-called Church of Satan, the Temple of Set, all these groups, wind up sounding more like Ayn Rand than Serrano. They have confused Luciferianism with the entity Satan who is part of the Semitic myth.
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how magic works, and about what all the “workings” people do, really do. Which I need to write about, but it’s hard.
To be more responsive to your question, I think that at the heart of Judaism is a tribal religion like many others, but someone way back made a pact with an entity that they found, figuratively out in the desert somewhere, that is malignant toward the metahuman entity, the God, that is at the source of both the unconscious world, including the innocent, and the supposedly conscious ones, such as ourselves. Indeed, “He” is at the source of the malignant entity too, which has its own function of destruction. This is why I am not a Dualist, really. Anyway, this entity was passed down both through the bloodline and through the culture, and here we are.
And over the course of the last three millenia, this entity, which took the name of the tribal god Jehovah, among others, became really powerful. He “blessed” his chosen people with a lot of capabilities, one of which was the ability to steal and coopt what is great and powerful from the other cultures they encountered. If you look at early Hebrewism, you see nothing approaching the teachings that came to be known as Kabbalah. The Tree of Life is the most powerful system of symbols for understanding the structure of manifest reality that I’ve ever seen; it’s much more grounded than say, the structured teachings of Gnosticism, which really are the same thing and come from the same root teaching, I believe. There’s nothing Jewish about any of these teachings. They’ve been coopted, both for the purposes of keeping them occult, in the sense of hidden, and for the purposes of misuse, like what I would call real Black Magic.
Black Magic is magic that harms others, supposedly for the benefit of the self. If you come to understand how things are really structured on a metaphysical level, you can easily see how that doesn’t work, because it disregards the true distinctions about what real lower entities “are”, and why it’s always said that harm done through magic comes back to harm the one who works it. This is why no one who’s really aware would do Black Magic, because it really can harm others, but it also harms the one who does it. The problem “we” have is that the nature of these malignant individuals is that they ultimately destroy themselves anyway; they have no long-term plan that includes their own salvation. They may think they do, but they’re delusional. If their work succeeds, they destroy us; then not having us to protect and maintain them, they are destroyed by their own thursic forces.
So this is why you see so many Jewish symbols and words in Black magic, as it comes to us. Because it’s very compatible with the mindset of the Jehovah entity. And unfortunately many of Aryan and mixed Aryan blood have, over the centuries, been polluted by and drawn to that, and preserved those symbols, which are stolen symbols, and mixed this pollution into Hermeticism. So when you see these symbols, you might want to contemplate that you’ve been drawn into a dangerous area, and be careful. On the other hand, some very powerful teachings have come down to us in those term and including those forms. There are ways to inoculate yourself, so to speak, against the little demons that come attached to them, and once you are safe they are quite worth studying.
CB: In your interview with Henrik, you mentioned what you called “the Kabbalah forces surrounding Roosevelt”. The fact that you used the phrase kabbalah forces instead of Jewish forces is interesting. Would you mind elaborating on what you meant there?
RW: I said “cabal”, not “Kabbalah”. But when you research the etymology of those two words, they have the same root, which has to do with being hidden – occult, esoteric – but on the other hand makes us think of the Jewish Kabbalah, of course. And of course the people around Roosevelt, the ones who led to his insane destructive policies with regard to foreign affairs were in fact Jewish or within that sphere of influence, including the Communists, Morgenthau and Harry Dexter White, et al. But I think we need to be careful in our thinking and stay away from pure biological racialism when we come to understand these things. We are talking about a Disease and its host, and in particular a Disease that did indeed get into the bloodline of a race, or a subrace of a non-race, and became passed down in and through it. But it’s pretty obvious that the Jews are not the only ones that have it, and also that some Jews are either immune to it, and there are those within whom it is dormant and inactive. And there are even some who have had the disease and recovered! And lots of sick Aryans and part-Aryans. This is why the NSDAP policy of killing or eliminating biological Jews, to the extent it really happened, was mistaken, and wouldn’t have accomplished what they were trying to achieve. You don’t get rid of disease by killing some of its hosts, and in the process you also kill some people who are part of your hope of recovery. There’s a lot of discussion to be had about what happened there, but suffice it to say it wasn’t Hitler the man or his associated higher entities, who was behind that.
CB: The Wiki entry for Kabbalah says that it “predates world religions, forming the primordial blueprint for Creation’s philosophies, religions, sciences, arts, and political systems.” Bill Cooper once said that Kabbalah was around long before the Jews and they they simply “took it and preserved it”. Which is probably just a nice way of saying they stole it, but I digress. From your research, what exactly is Kabbalah and is it having an effect on world events today?
RW: Well I think all that is correct, and I addressed some of it above. The concept of Kabblah is all mixed up in Judaism itself with a bunch of teachings that really are Jewish, and it needs to be sorted out, it seems. The Tree of Life, the concept of Adam Kadmon and the structure of everything, comes from the same source, I think, as the root and true teachings of all Traditions. It’s just, as you say, better preserved, and mostly cleanly expressed, even more so than in the Vedas, I think. However, I’ve never found a source of teaching on the Kabbalah that’s not Jewish, or mixed in with it, even in Hermeticism. And there’s all sorts of disinformation mixed in there. It’s the same with the Tarot, I think. I’m still trying to find a Tarot deck that really speaks to me; the Crowley interpretation in the Thoth deck speaks to me but I have mixed feelings about the Lady Freda Harris cards.
But in the Kabbalah, and as expressed in the Tarot, there is a real numerology, as opposed to the silly pop version, where you add up you birth year based on a calendar that’s been determined by Semitic influences, for example. I don’t think the Kabbalah influences world events so much as explains them. It’s an ontological template, for understanding, and if you want to do esoteric work, self-development, I can’t think of a better practice field. Israel Regardie’s A Garden of Pomegranates is excellent with regard to this. And yes, Regardie was Jewish, and the Golden Dawn was a real mixed bag. But I think you can use their playing field, so to speak, if you are conscious and do it with awareness.
CB: Do you think the Jewish elite are practicing some form of what might be called black magic?
RW: The one thing I know about that group, assuming they do exist in physical form, is that we don’t know who they are or what they’re doing. If you’re talking about people whose names we know and whose faces we would recognize – I really don’t know either. And of course we would have to decide what magic is. There is of course Crowley’s definition – “the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will” – but that includes almost anything anyone does.
I can tell you from my own experience that it is possible to contact certain forces which have to do with the larger Self, and to “encourage” or implore those forces to direct their “attention” to certain things “I” need done. I have never tried doing anything malevolent on that level, because intuitively I know that to do so would mean to break contact with the higher Self and to try to take action, as a smaller self, on a plane where that smaller self is not capable of acting, or at least of acting responsibly. My strong feeling is that such actions would have no results at all or would have negative consequences for my smaller self. Perhaps the ability to do this sort of thing successfully, to act malevolently on that level, is the essence of what we should call Black magic.
So I don’t know the efficacy of arcane rituals, if that is what is meant by Black magic. My own experience is that such are metaphors on the physical plane of psychic or astral processes. They may be played out here as manifestations of something that is occurring on a higher level; or more often they are ritual preparations, really empowerments, crutches to enable the actor to do something on a higher level. Surely there is a portion of this elite that is doing them, but I’m not sure if that’s really the thrust of what’s going on. My own strong feeling is that the ongoing destructive process is the action of a metahuman entity who also manifests as the Disease on the physical and psychological planes.
So my guess is that disrupting these rituals, such as they are, would not change anything. I think they are reflections, not causes. I hope that makes sense. Incidentally, if someone really wants to be able to “do” magic, my suggestion would be something like Edred Thorrson’s Nine Doors of Midgard (although I don’t know the new edition, and Thorsson/Flowers, in his attempt to Asatru-ise the process, throws in a few things like Runic Yoga, which I don’t think are of value. You may disagree, and if those things work for you, then do them.) You could also look at Franz Bardon’s Initiation into Hermetics, which appears to have been the model for the Nine Doors. But I think you can only prepare the vessel and wait to see if the higher entity decides to join you.
CB: Do you celebrate Halloween as Samhain and/or Christmas as Yule?
RW: Not particularly. I mean, I honor the “pagan” versions of those holidays, as recognitions of natural cycles. And if someone wants to a share a Yule log I’m happy to join them. But as far as any kind of ritual exercise, and by that I include my regular invocations and accompanying meditation/ prayer activity, I tend to try to do those things when they feel right. I don’t think that physical time, calendars and watches, are reliable guides in this Age when all things manifest are increasingly suspect. I think I’d feel differently if I were around a larger group that wanted to celebrate those days in ways that are appropriate.
CB: In your opinion, does the pentagram have any place within the revival of the old European religions? More specifically, do you believe that the symbol is truly pagan in origin or is there possibly some Jewish and/or Christian influence there?
RW: I think the most valuable thing that could be done on the level of clarifying and reviving traditions would be a cleansing of the Kabbalah, that has only come down to us in the most hidden and tainted forms. If someone is aware of a thorough attempt at this, I wish they would let me know. The pentagram is just a manifestation of the number five, with all its connotations. The fifth Sephiroth is Geburah, which is associated with change, the association of motion with matter, but still not as particular as the human level. Often it signifies the occurrence of change, destruction and change, before reconstruction and manifestation. The shape itself probably came to the Hebrews through Mesopotamia, or Sumer. And of course it’s subject to taint. But no one can claim a monopoly; it’s just a part of that underlying ontology that lies as the foundation of everything. It’s also associated with Lucifer or with Venus. The association with Lucifer with “Satan” (who is a Semitic fabrication, a slander of other people’s gods) is of course a part of the corruption. So use of that symbol as “Satanic” is just ignorant.
Having said that, I think that the “Satanists” and the Black Metalers and others who champion Satan as some sort of rebel, have a good gut feeling, but often don’t have the training or realization to do much with it. It’s a good first step for some of them, though.
CB: Asatru and Odinism have a mostly positive connotation among White Nationalists and Eurocentric types, whereas the so-called Left Hand Path and magic spelled with a “k” on the end are usually either unknown or have a negative connotation. In your opinion, is there any connection between Asatru/Odinism and the practice of summoning entities/spirits?
RW: Well, sure. There are right and left-hand paths in any religious structure. The right hand is for people who need rules to follow and to be guided and there’s nothing wrong with that. That doesn’t make them unintelligent or ignoble. And these are the people that are most needed and most reliable and effective when the occult wars are as manifest on the material level as they are right now. They are the most clear-minded of the Kshatriya and the Samurai. As well as the Vaishyas and Sudras. It’s only on the priestly level that the left hand is productive. Higher entities associated with Vaishyas, for example, are right there at the heart of the evils we are experiencing now.
I think if you’re going to “summon” spirits, you need to identify what it is that shows up. We know what happens when the wrong spirit shows up and gets into the blood of a people. So I think the occult model, in the way most people conceive it, is dangerous and somewhat irresponsible. Mickey Mouse as the Sorcerer’s Apprentice. On the other hand, I have implored at times to be “possessed” by the Archetype and I think I have made some contact, which seems to have changed my awareness and ability to act on metaphysical levels, although it’s not really “me” that acts. It’s an ongoing experiment, because the little ego feels fear there.
CB: Speaking of summoning entities, on ebay there are grimoires for sale that are two or three hundred years old or older and priced in the tens of thousands of dollars. Have you ever personally put your hands on one of these things?
RW: No. I would like to do so. Maybe one of the Icelandic ones bound in human skin?
CB: What does the phrase “as above, so below” mean to you?
RW: That everything that occurs on the material plane is a manifestation of something that takes place on a higher level, ontologically speaking. Again, I would refer to the Kaballah and to the Gnostics, without adopting all of their particulars. Or to Hindu cosmology. It also means that the most productive change occurs on the highest level possible. Pushing and pulling things on the level of manifestation doesn’t change much except to produce waves and disturbances on the mundane levels. This is why higher consciousness, to use and abused phrase, is not only useful and effective, but necessary. The forces of destruction also emanate from the highest; this is where the extreme dualist philosophies go wrong. Destruction, or “evil” as we see it, is not “bad” on an absolute level. It is surely an emanation from the highest and is necessary for cleansing and regeneration. That doesn’t mean that we should not combat it, if we are forces for good. It is the nature of manifest beings to fight for their survival. It is a denial of their true nature not to do so. So we should combat evil, but it will never be defeated. If one manifestation of it is killed, another arises. Just like us. Self-realization comes from fulfilling ones’s Dharma and Karma while being aware of the higher nature of things. Moving up and down that metaphysical slider, to always operate from and on the appropriate level, is the essence of real magic and self-realization. It requires an initial opening and a lot of practice.
CB: What books or resources are some of your favorites that others might find useful and enlightening?
RW: Here are some in the order that they occur to me. I am sure that I could expand this infinitely if I think about it too long.
- The Lightning and the Sun, by Savitri Devi. Also, Defiance, Gold in the Furnace, Impeachment of Man
- Adolf Hitler: The Ultimate Avatar, by Miguel Serrano. Also, The Resurrection of the Hero.
- The Bhagavad Gita.
- The Vedic Experience: Mantramanjari by Raimundo Panikkar.
- The Arctic Home in the Vedas by B.G. Tilak.
- Revolt Against the Modern World, by Julius Evola. Also, The Path of Cinnabar.
- The Silmarillion, by J.R.R. Tolkien. Also some other books you may have heard of.
- Victory or Valhalla: The Final Compilation of Writings, by David Lane.
- The Book of Thoth, by Aleister Crowley.
- A Garden of Pomegranates, by Israel Regardie. I still want a better book on the Tree of Life, but I’m not sure it’s out there.
- Hitler’s War, by David Irving. Also, Nuremberg: The Last Battle.
- The Occult Roots of Nazism, Secret Aryan Cults and Their Influence on Nazi Ideology, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke. Also, Black Sun.
- My Awakening, by David Duke.
- The Occult, by Colin Wilson.
- 1984 by George Orwell.
- The Nine Doors of Midgard: A Curriculum of Rune-Work, by Edred Thorsson. Also, Futhark: A Handbook of Rune Magic.
- Triumph of the Will, by Leni Riefenstahl. Also, Olympia.
- The Birth of a Nation by D.W. Griffith.
- Heimat by Edgar Reitz. The original thirteen episodes, known as Heimat I.
- They Live by John Carpenter.